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August 6, 2008

Commentary
Three tips for the A-zone
deer opener this Saturday


By JIM MATTHEWS
Outdoor News Service

 

The first of California’s deer hunting seasons kicks off this Saturday when the massive A-zone along much of the coast opens. While the Monterey Ranger District of the Los Padres National Forest remains closed to public entry because of recent fires, most of the other public lands in this region will be open to hunters.
Speaking to several veteran A-zone sportsmen who have consistently taken bucks in this zone on public lands, it was amazing that they offered almost the same advice. Distilled, here are their three most important tips:


Focus on edges of burned areas: While forest fires look devastating on television, they actually are a huge benefit to wildlife, especially deer, because they clear out underbrush and old vegetation that has little nutritional value. Most chaparral species of shrubs also crown sprout after a fire, and the fresh sprout -- which often come up within two weeks of the fire that charred the hillsides -- are favored deer food.
With that knowledge, all veteran hunters recommend that deer hunters focus their attention on the edges of recently burned areas. The deer are not only concentrated in these areas, moved out of the main burn by flames, but they almost immediately start using the burn for feeding. Because major burns leave little or no cover where deer can hide, the edges of the fires are where the deer concentrate.
“A hunter wants to get in there are work the edges of those burns,” said Erwin Ward, a retired U.S. Forest Service employee who runs Big Game Hunting Maps, a where-to-go hunting map business. “The Gap fire right here above Santa Barbara was just four weeks ago, but things are already sprouting up. I’d sure look at places around that burn if you can get in there. And last year’s Zaca fire area should be really good.”
Burn areas remain good up to seven or eight years after the fire, at least until the vegetation becomes too old and thick again.


Further from roads is better: Most hunters have read this 100 times, but the further you are willing to get away from roaded access on public lands, the higher your success rate will be. Rich Chagolla, a Riverside hunter who has taken some real trophy bucks in Southern California, says he is usually at least 1 ½ miles from the nearest road when he starts seeing deer.
“We start hiking at 3:30 in the morning, and depending on how the hunt goes, we’ll stay out until past dark,” said Chagolla.


Deer leave tracks and poop: This last piece of advice almost seems simple-minded, but all the veterans said they were amazed at how many hunters spend time in areas where there is no deer sign.
“You have to go where the deer are,” said Durwood Hollis, a veteran A-zone hunter from Rancho Cucamonga who killed two A-zone bucks every year for nearly 30 years. “Deer leave tracks and poop where they live. If you’re not seeing those two things, you’re in the wrong place. And the more you see the better.”
All the hunters said that the August A-zone hunt is held the hottest time of the year, and while the hunting is frequently uncomfortable, the deer also need water every day and knowing the locations of the spring, creeks, and stock water in an area is important. Deer might not come to water except in the middle of the night, but if you see sign around the watering spots, you at least know they are nearby.
While it’s a little late for pre-season scouting for the A-zone, this advice also applies for all the other Southern California deer seasons opening later this fall, and the most successful hunters usually spend as much or more time in the field before the hunting season as they do during the season.


Permanent Kern River flows in Bakersfield?:

 

Recent litigation has forced a San Joaquin Valley water district to give up as much as 100,000 acre-feet of its Kern River water each year. Of course, folks are scrambling to try and get that water for their pet projects.
The City of Bakersfield is petitioning the State Water Resources Control Board to give the city the water to be used “to re-establish flows in the natural Kern River watercourse through Bakersfield” in an effort to restore the river – which is frequently completely dry in Bakersfield – for fish, wildlife, and recreational purposes.
You can read the city’s official proposal at this web site: http://www.waterrights.ca.gov/application/fas_kern.html. And since any new use of this water will require a change in the “fully appropriated status” of the Kern now, you can see who – besides the City of Bakersfield – wants this water at this address: http://www.waterrights.ca.gov/application/PetNot/docs/fas/publicnotice.pdf. No should be surprised to see that the list is a list of mega ag and water agencies that want to keep the river dry.
Anglers and duck hunters who want to get involved in helping the city can write letters supporting the city’s petition at this address: Kathryn Gaffney, State Water Resources Control Board, Division of Water Rights, 1001 I Street, P.O. Box 100, Sacramento, CA 95812 or via e-mail at kgaffney@waterboards.ca.gov.


Mt. Whitney Fish Hatchery recovery:

 

During massive thunderstorms in mid-July, the Mt. Whitney Fish Hatchery near Independence in the Eastern Sierra was flooded and engulfed in a mudslide, its raceways and ponds filled with mud, and its water system which brought in water out of Oak Creek was completely destroyed. The loss included nearly 3,000 trout, mostly broodstock fish, but the history hatchery building survived.
It is estimated it will take at least two years before the hatchery can be cleaned up and facilities repaired enough to again raise fish. Fortunately, the hatchery had been downsized in recent years and it was mostly a brood-stock and egg-production hatchery and the Department of Fish and Game is hopeful it can make up the production in other facilities in the short term. In the long term many are wondering where the DFG is going to come up with the money to do the repairs. It has been estimated the costs for this chore will be “several million” dollars.
Hunter safety classes: New hunters who want to get in on this year’s dove have less than a month to go to take their hunter safety class to get a hunting license. All first-time hunters in California must take one of these classes before they can purchase a license. Also, if you’re purchasing a junior hunter a new gun, remember that California has a 10-day waiting period before the gun can be picked up, making Aug. 20 the last day a gun can be purchased and still picked up in time for the dove opener on Monday, September 1.
For a complete list of hunter safety classes throughout the state, you can log on the the Department of Fish and Game’s website at this address to get a listing with contact numbers: http://www.dfg.ca.gov/huntered/classes.aspx. Turner’s Outdoorsman and Mike Raahauge’s Shooting Enterprises run the largest hunter safety program in the state. In prep for the fall hunting seasons, there are classes every Saturday in August, and both Saturday and Sunday the weekend before the dove opener. You can get more information at any Turner’s store or by calling Raahauge’s at 951-735-7981 or going to the website at http://www.raahauges.com/huntersafety.htm.

OUTDOOR CALENDAR

AUGUST 8 CALIFORNIA WATERFOWL NORTH SAN DIEGO FUND-RAISER: The North San Diego Chapter of the California Waterfowl Association will have its annual fund-raising dinner beginning 6 p.m., Friday, Aug. 8 at the Elks Lodge, 13219 Poway Road, Poway. Tickets are $55 per person. Contacts: Steve Turigliatto at 760-803-4868, Matt Berg at 760-473-4749 or Bill Swallow at 619-694-9756. Web site: www.calwaterfowl.org.
AUGUST 9 CROWLEY LAKE STILLWATER CLASSIC FUND-RAISER: The annual Crowley Lake Stillwater Classic catch-and-release fly-fishing competition and fund-raiser will be held Saturday, Aug. 9 out of the Crowley Lake Fish Camp. Shore, boat, and float tube anglers can all compete. Entry fee is $75 per angler and includes lunch and tee-shirt. There will also be an auction and raffle. All proceeds are used to plant brown trout in Crowley Lake. Information: 760-935-4301 or go to www.crowleylakefishcamp.com.
AUGUST 9-10 GLENDALE GUN SHOW: The Glendale Gun Show will be held 9 a.m. to 5 p.m. Saturday, Aug. 9, and 9 a.m. to 4 p.m. Sunday, Aug. 10, at the Glendale Civic Auditorium, Glendale. Admission is $9. The next Glendale gun show will be Nov. 15-16. Information, directions, and $1 off coupons available at www.glendalegunshow.com.
AUGUST 16 NORCO HUNTER SAFETY CLASS: A one-day, 10-hour certified hunter safety class will be held at Mike Raahauge's Shooting Enterprises, Norco. Classes are required for all first-time California hunters before a hunting license can be purchased. Cost is $35 per person. The remaining 2008 class dates are Aug. 23, 24, 30, Sept. 13, Oct. 11, Nov. 1, Dec. 6. Sign-ups are taken at all Turner's Outdoorsman stores. Contact Raahauge's at 951-735-7981.
AUGUST 22 FRIENDS OF THE NRA MOUNTAIN COMMUNITIES FUND-RAISER: The Mountain Communities Friends of the NRA will have its annual banquet beginning 5 p.m., Friday, August 22, at the Lake Arrowhead Resort, 27984 Highway 189, Lake Arrowhead. Dinner tickets are $50 per person. Contact: Warren Weir at 909-941-1496 or via e-mail at mtncomfnra@live.com.
AUGUST 20 CALIFORNIA WATERFOWL CHINO FUND-RAISER: The Chino Chapter of the California Waterfowl Association will have its annual fund-raising dinner beginning 5:30 p.m., Wednesday, Aug. 20 at the Chino Fairgrounds, 5410 Edison Ave., Chino. Tickets are $50 per person, $75 per couple. Contacts: Jim Morton at 909-391-6512 or Tom Homen at 209-587-0886. Web site: www.calwaterfowl.org.
AUGUST 23 HOG HUNTING A TO Z SEMINAR: There will be a six-hour compendium wild hog hunting class at Bass Pro Shop, Rancho Cucamonga, beginning 10 a.m., Saturday, August 23. The $100 seminar will be conducted by Jim Matthews, editor of California Hog Hunter, a newsletter on hunting wild hogs, and Durwood Hollis, hunting book author and public land hog hunting expert. Guest presenters include Tejon Ranch hog hunting guide Ron Gayer and GPS expert Dennis Phillips. Information and reservations by calling 909-887-3444 or www.outdoornewsservice.com/hogs/seminars.html.
AUGUST 23 NORCO HUNTER SAFETY CLASS: A one-day, 10-hour certified hunter safety class will be held at Mike Raahauge's Shooting Enterprises, Norco. Classes are required for all first-time California hunters before a hunting license can be purchased. Cost is $35 per person. The remaining 2008 class dates are Aug. 24, Aug. 30, Sept. 13, Oct. 11, Nov. 1, Dec. 6. Sign-ups are taken at all Turner's Outdoorsman stores. Contact Raahauge's at 951-735-7981.
AUGUST 23-24 CAMP CADY WORK PROJECT: The Mojave Water-for-Wildlife Volunteer Group is coordinating a major two-day work detail to make improvements at the Camp Cady Wildlife Area, an unstaffed Department of Fish and Game wildlife area on the Mojave River 30 miles east of Barstow. Volunteers and a wide range of equipment and material are needed for this effort. For more information, a laundry list of work to be done, and directions to the camp site, contact Cliff McDonald at 760-326-2935 or via e-mail at bigmc@citlink.net.
AUGUST 24 NORCO HUNTER SAFETY CLASS: A one-day, 10-hour certified hunter safety class will be held at Mike Raahauge's Shooting Enterprises, Norco. Classes are required for all first-time California hunters before a hunting license can be purchased. Cost is $35 per person. The remaining 2008 class dates are Aug. 30, Sept. 13, Oct. 11, Nov. 1, Dec. 6. Sign-ups are taken at all Turner's Outdoorsman stores. Contact Raahauge's at 951-735-7981.
AUGUST 30 INLAND EMPIRE NWTF BANQUET: The Inland Empire Chapter of the National Wild Turkey Federation will have its second annual Hunting Heritage Banquet beginning 5:30 a.m., Saturday, Aug. 30 at the Elks Lodge, 2055 Elk’s Drive, San Bernardino. Tickets are $60 per person, $90 per couple. Contact numbers, 909-380-3629, 909-208-2212, or 909-815-5682.
AUGUST 30 NORCO HUNTER SAFETY CLASS: A one-day, 10-hour certified hunter safety class will be held at Mike Raahauge's Shooting Enterprises, Norco. Classes are required for all first-time California hunters before a hunting license can be purchased. Cost is $35 per person. The remaining 2008 class dates are Sept. 13, Oct. 11, Nov. 1, Dec. 6. Sign-ups are taken at all Turner's Outdoorsman stores. Contact Raahauge's at 951-735-7981.
AUGUST 30-31 BAKERSFIELD GUN SHOW: The Central Coast Gun Shows Bakersfield event will be held Saturday and Sunday, August 30-31 at the Kern County Fairgrounds, Bakersfield. The next Bakersfield gun show will be Nov. 22-23. Information at www.centralcoastgunshows.com.
AUGUST 31 CALIFORNIA WATERFOWL IMPERIAL VALLEY FUND-RAISER: The Imperial Valley Chapter of the California Waterfowl Association will have its fun dove opener fund-raising dinner beginning 6:30 p.m., Sunday, Aug. 31 at Aspen In The Desert, 595 W. Main St., Brawley. Tickets are $30 per person. Contacts: Frank Bailey at 760-359-0200, Hollis Daker at 909-615-6329, Keith Cowell at 760-455-8990, or Frank Theodoropoulos at 714-227-3304. Web site: www.calwaterfowl.org.
SEPTEMBER 6 RANCHO CUCAMONGA HUNTER SAFETY CLASS: A one-day, 10-hour certified hunter safety class will be held at Bass Pro Shop, Rancho Cucamonga. Classes are required for all first-time California hunters before a hunting license can be purchased. These free classes are held from 9 a.m. to 7 p.m. the first Saturday of each month at Bass Pro and limited to 40 people. Reservations by calling Bass Pro at 909-922-5500.
SEPTEMBER 6-7 CONCEALED CARRY WEAPON COURSE: A 16-hour California Concealed Carry Weapon (CCW) course is being offered by Firearms Training Associates at Mike Raahauge's Shooting Enterprises this Saturday and Sunday. Cost is $180 per person. This course meets the state requirement for 16 hours of training to qualify for a CCW (not valid in San Bernardino County). Other dates for 2008 classes are Oct. 4-5, Nov. 1-2, and Dec. 6-7. Contact FTA at 714-701-9918 or 877-544-4867. The web site is www.ftatv.com.
SEPTEMBER 13 NORCO HUNTER SAFETY CLASS: A one-day, 10-hour certified hunter safety class will be held at Mike Raahauge's Shooting Enterprises, Norco. Classes are required for all first-time California hunters before a hunting license can be purchased. Cost is $35 per person. The remaining 2008 class dates are Oct. 11, Nov. 1, Dec. 6. Sign-ups are taken at all Turner's Outdoorsman stores. Contact Raahauge's at 951-735-7981.
OCTOBER 4 RANCHO CUCAMONGA HUNTER SAFETY CLASS: A one-day, 10-hour certified hunter safety class will be held at Bass Pro Shop, Rancho Cucamonga. Classes are required for all first-time California hunters before a hunting license can be purchased. These free classes are held from 9 a.m. to 7 p.m. the first Saturday of each month at Bass Pro and limited to 40 people. Reservations by calling Bass Pro at 909-922-5500.
OCTOBER 4-5 CONCEALED CARRY WEAPON COURSE: A 16-hour California Concealed Carry Weapon (CCW) course is being offered by Firearms Training Associates at Mike Raahauge's Shooting Enterprises this Saturday and Sunday. Cost is $180 per person. This course meets the state requirement for 16 hours of training to qualify for a CCW (not valid in San Bernardino County). Other dates for 2008 classes are Nov. 1-2 and Dec. 6-7. Contact FTA at 714-701-9918 or 877-544-4867. The web site is www.ftatv.com.
OCTOBER 11 NORCO HUNTER SAFETY CLASS: A one-day, 10-hour certified hunter safety class will be held at Mike Raahauge's Shooting Enterprises, Norco. Classes are required for all first-time California hunters before a hunting license can be purchased. Cost is $35 per person. The remaining 2008 class dates are Nov. 1 and Dec. 6. Sign-ups are taken at all Turner's Outdoorsman stores. Contact Raahauge's at 951-735-7981.
DECEMBER 20 CALIFORNIA WATERFOWL IMPERIAL VALLEY FUND-RAISER: The Imperial Valley Chapter of the California Waterfowl Association will have its mid-season fund-raising dinner banquet beginning 5 p.m., Saturday, Dec. at the St. Patricks’s Community Center, 133 E. Church, Calipatria. Dinner tickets are $55 per person, $80 a couple. Contacts: Frank Bailey at 760-359-0200 or Keith Cowell at 760-455-8990. Web site: www.calwaterfowl.org.

CALENDAR RESOURCES


For a complete list of HUNTER SAFETY CLASSES held throughout the state, including times, dates, and locations, go to the Department of Fish and Game’s web site at this address: http://www.dfg.ca.gov/huntered/classes.aspx.
For the rules and regulations on GRUNION RUNS, along with a complete schedule and the expected times of the runs, go to this web site address: http://www.dfg.ca.gov/marine/gruschd.asp

CLUBS AND ORGANIZATIONS


The following is a list of hunting, shooting, and fishing clubs and organizations in Southern California with contact information and regular meeting dates:
976-TUNA ROD AND REEL CLUB: The 976-Tuna Rod and Reel Club meets 7 p.m. the first Thursday of each month at Bass Pro Shops, Rancho Cucamonga. At the December meeting a free trip to Palmas de Cortez in Baja will be given away. Contact Phil Friedman at 310-328-8426.
CALIFORNIA STATE VARMINT CALLERS ASSOCIATION: The California State Varmint Callers Association meets 7 p.m. the second Tuesday of each month at the Denny's just north of the 210 freeway at Irwindale Ave., Irwindale. Contact Steven Childs at 626-407-8826 or steve@sdchilds.com. Web site: www.csvca.com.
CANYON OAKS SPORTSMAN’S CLUB: The Canyon Oaks Sportsman’s Club meets the first Tuesday of every month at it’s clubhouse in Lakeview Terrace-Sylmar. The club has regular trap, skeet, smallbore, big bore, handgun, and Cowboy Action shooting events. Contact Gary White at 818-998-7240, Mike Totta at 818-362-2181 or Mike Nickoloff via e-mail at idpamike@yahoo.com.
CERRITOS ROD & GUN CLUB: The Cerritos Rod & Gun Club meets the second Wednesday of each month at Heritage Park in Cerritos. Contact Charles Sharp at 714-317-8290 or fish_90605@yahoo.com.
CLUB FISH: Club Fish, a 20-year-old fishing club, meets 7:30 p.m. the second Wednesday of each month at the Izaak Walton League Clubhouse, Santa Ana. The clubhouse is located at the entrance to Riverview Gold Course. Contact Mike Cross at 949-854-5258 or m_r_cross@yahoo.com.
    DEEP CREEK FLY-FISHERS: Deep Creek Fly-Fishers meets on the fourth Wednesday of each month at the Izaak Walton League clubhouse in Fairmont Park, in Riverside. Go to www.deepcreekflyfishers.org to download a map to the club house. Contact Brett Browning at 909-793-8912.
HIGH DESERT FLY-FISHERS: The High Desert Fly-Fishers holds its monthly meetings on the second Thursday of each month at The Apple Valley Fire Conference Center, 19235 Yucca Loma, Apple Valley. Contact John Rose at 760-247-5966.
HIGHLAND PARK SPORTSMEN'S CLUB: The Highland Park Sportsmen's Club meets at 8 p.m. the first and third Wednesday of each month at 2035 Colorado Blvd., Los Angeles. Contact Mauro Garcia at 323-254-0763 or incareal@juno.com.
NATIONAL VARMINT HUNTERS: The National Varmint Hunters meets 7:30 p.m. the second Wednesday of each month at the Veterans of Foreign Wars club located on Grand Avenue, just west of 17th Street, Santa Ana. Contact Mark Harris at 714-655-6954 or mhitis1@yahoo.com or Terry Mathers at 714-299-9938 or coyote@jps.net.
NATIONAL WILD TURKEY FEDERATION (HIGH DESERT CHAPTER): The High Desert Chapter of the National Wild Turkey Federation meets 6:30 p.m. the first Thursday of each month at the Apple Valley Gun Club, 16699 Stoddard Wells Rd., Victorville. Contact Dave Recce at 760-956-7092 or Dave Halbrook at 760-553-2794.
NATIONAL WILD TURKEY FEDERATION (ORANGE COUNTY CHAPTER): The Orange County Chapter of the National Wild Turkey Federation meets 6 p.m. the third Tuesday of each month at The Firing Line, 17921 Jamestown Lane, Huntington Beach. Contact Pat Ryan at 714-373-3688 or Casey Rasmussen at 714-377-5859.
ORANCO BOWMEN: The ORANCO Bowmen meet the second Tuesday of each month at the club range, 17504 Pomona Rincon Rd., Chino (Euclid Avenue one block north of the 71 freeway). The range is open to the public on Sundays 8:30 a.m. to 2 p.m. Call 909-597-7582. Web site: www.oranco.org.
ORANGE COUNTY BASS CLUB: The Orange County Bass Club meets 7 p.m. the third Monday of each month at the Garden Grove Elk's Lodge. Contact Steve Pendergast at 949-651-8172 or prendergasts@netzero.com.
PLUNGE CREEK COWBOYS: The Plunge Creek Cowboys, a new Cowboy Action Shooting club in the Inland Empire, has shoots the third Saturday of each month at the Inland Fish and Game range on Orange Street in East Highlands. Authentic or replica firearms and garb required. Information: www.plungecreekcowboys.com.
PREDATOR CALLERS OF ORANGE COUNTY: The Predator Callers of Orange County meet 7 p.m. on the first Tuesday of the month at the Denny's restaurant, 7490 Edinger Ave., Huntington Beach. Contact Rickey Macy via e-mail at rickmacey@juno.com.
QUAIL UNLIMITED (HIGH DESERT CHAPTER): The High Desert Chapter of Quail Unlimited meets 6 p.m. the third Tuesday of each month at the Apple Valley Gun Club. Contact Cruz Garcia at 760-949-6334 or fathercruz@verizon.net.
QUAIL UNLIMITED (ORANGE COUNTY CHAPTER): The Orange County Chapter of Quail Unlimited meets 7 p.m. the first Tuesday of each month at the Izaak Walton League Clubhouse (located at the entrance to Riverview Golf Course) in Santa Ana. Contact Craig Riedel at 714-282-1194 or criedel@mflex.com.
QUAIL UNLIMITED (RIVERSIDE CHAPTER): The Riverside Chapter of Quail Unlimited meets 7 p.m. the second Thursday of each month at Prado Olympic Shooting Park, 17501 Pomona Rincon Road, Chino (one block west of Euclid, just off the 71 freeway). Contact Ron Gibbons at 909-902-9814 or gibbent@gte.net. Web site: www.quriverside.com.
QUAIL UNLIMITED (SAN DIEGO CHAPTER): The San Diego Chapter of Quail Unlimited meets 6:30 p.m. the third Thursday of each month at DFG Headquarters at 4949 Viewridge Rd., San Diego. Contact David Preddy at davidpreddy@cox.net or visit www.sdqu.org.
QUAIL UNLIMITED (SAN GABRIEL VALLEY CHAPTER): The San Gabriel Valley Chapter of Quail Unlimited meets 6 p.m. the second Wednesday of each month at Triple B Clays in El Monte. Contact Tim Bovard at 866-206-9070, ext. 6715 or sgvqu@onebox.com.
REDONDO ROD & GUN CLUB: The Redondo Rod & Gun Club meets 8 p.m. every Thursday of every month at its own clubhouse. The club has promoted hunting, fishing, sport shooting and the outdoors since 1948. The clubhouse is located at 2023 Vanderbilt Lane, Redondo Beach. Contact 310-379-7772.
RIVERSIDE VARMINT CALLERS: The Riverside Varmint Callers meet 7 p.m. the last Saturday of each month at Flo's Country Kitchen, Riverside. Contact Lance Cochrane at 909-919-4309 or Ray Gauthier at 951-785-4986. Web site:www.californiavarmintcallers.com/chapters.html/.
SAN DIEGO SPORTING DOG CLUB: The San Diego Sporting Dog Club meets 7 p.m. the second Wednesday of each month at the Animal Medical Center, 600 Broadway, El Cajon. Contact Steve Sarmiento at 619-659-9393 or sssarmi@sbcglobal.net.
SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA VARMINT CALLERS ASSOCIATION: The Southern California Varmint Callers Association meets 8 p.m. the first Wednesday of each month at the Denny's Restaurant at Pioneer Blvd and Imperial Highway in Norwalk. Contact Granville Crow at 310-548-6221 or crowshot1@cox.net or Skip Gildner at 562-900-9020 or mtnhigh5@excite.com.
TEMPLE CITY SPORTSMEN: The Temple City Sportsmen meet the first Thursday of each month at the Temple City Civic Center in Temple City. Contact Jim White at 626-201-7782 or TCSPresident2006@yahoo.com.
TURNER'S OUTDOORSMAN ROD AND REEL CLUB: The Turner's Outdoorsman Rod and Reel Club meets 7 p.m. the second Wednesday of each month at Marie Calendar’s Restaurant, 2300 Foothill, Pasadena. Contact Richard Crowe at 626-960-9610.

 

[Want your event or club listed here? Send the information to Jim Matthews, Outdoor News Service, P.O. Box 9007, San Bernardino, CA 92427-0007 or e-mail it to odwriter@charter.net. Following the style used above for events and clubs makes our life easier and increases the likelihood of it being included here.]

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