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January 03, 2008

Commentary
A 200-pound sturgeon? A 30-pound trout?
What’s next on the planted fish scene?

By JIM MATTHEWS
Outdoor News Service

On one hand, you’ve got to admit that it’s pretty cool that more 10-pound class trout are caught from urban lakes in Southern California over one winter than are caught in the famous trout states of Montana, Wyoming, Idaho, and Colorado for a whole year.
On the other hand, everyone knows these are pen-raised, genetically-selected, diet-enhanced trout that come from a couple of hatcheries that specialize in “designer” trout and oversize rainbows that can’t reproduce.
Today, you can get rainbows that look like wild rainbows with crimson stripes down their sides and pink meat. You can get them in golden yellow, palomino colored, and slate gray. With only a little modest genetic tinkering, I’m sure they could be made to glow in the dark.
We are planting little urban lakes with prehistoric sturgeon that weigh over 200 pounds to fill anglers’ craving to catch really big fish, and we plant the fastest growing-strain of largemouth bass in our reservoirs and then feed them expensive, high-protein rainbow trout in hopes they’re reach world record proportions – something over 22-pounds, four-ounces. We have at least one fish from Lake Dixon to prove the program can work.
For the longest time, I called all hatchery trout “pussguts” because they no more resembled wild trout than schnauzers resemble wolves. But lakes like Puddingstone or Santa Ana River Lakes or Prado Park Lake don’t much look like trout lakes either. No self-respecting wild trout would be caught dead in those places. But waters like these provide a wonderful recreational outlet for many of us who want to get away for a couple of hours after work during the week or after church on Sunday with the kids. So why not designer trout?
I admit that I didn’t much care for hatchery programs that stuffed fish into lakes only to have the fish winched out quickly afterward. I was a purist, and if you couldn’t catch wild fish under wild conditions, well, it just wasn’t fishing. That credo pretty much rules out fishing here. Virtually none of the freshwater fish caught by anglers in any water in Southern California are native, wild fish. Everything is introduced. Get over it. I did.
Sure, there’s a subtle difference between a freshly-planted rainbow trout that weighs 12 pounds and a non-native largemouth bass of the same weight that was born and feed in its home lake. But most trout fishermen don’t stand on the front of boats outfitted with stealthy electric motors, equipment that allows you to see the exactly location and size of the fish, and tackle heavy enough to jerk the fish out of the water and into the boat. The best hatchery trout fishermen use two-pound test line and tiny finesse jigs or scented floating baits. This is not to say that either is easy, or one type of fishing is better than the other. They are different. Even with all the high tech equipment, the big bass are difficult at best, impossible at worst. Both test the angler’s fishing skills and his ability to land fish once they are hooked.
Back when rainbow trout were the only hatchery product delivered for anglers, they were mostly eight to 14-inch fish that were easy to catch and didn’t provide much skill or recreation. Until recently, they were even fed meal that made their flesh white and soft. They weren’t much to eat either. Unfortunately, most of the hatchery fish still delivered by the Department of Fish and Game fit that model. But the designer hatcheries and managers of the lake programs -- both public and private -- recognized that anglers wanted something more than five pussguts on a stringer.
Big trout came first. Then bigger trout. Then steelhead-sized trout. Now we’re into salmon-sized trout. And Phil Mackey, the owner of Mt. Lassen Trout Farms in Red Bluff (where many of the trout planted in local urban lakes originate), has told me he’s not sure what the upper limit is on the trout he’s breeding and raising. He’s had 30-pound class fish for the past couple of years and two of those fish are challenging anglers in Santa Ana River Lakes as you read this. He thinks 40-pounders are possible, maybe bigger.
But Mackey has also been at the forefront of developing the different color phases of trout -- the Lightning Trout (the bright golden yellow color phase of rainbow trout), the Thunder Trout (the bright, steel gray fish), and he has a palomino trout that looks more like a koy than a rainbow (and hasn’t received much interest from lake managers). The first two fish are startling beautiful trout, and Mackey also keeps all of his trout on a rich diet that turns their meat a bright pink color before they are planted. They look and taste better. They fight hard.
Lake managers are in fierce competition with each other to entice anglers to their lakes. The winter Trout Wars have been about who’s planting the biggest, most, or prettiest trout. Hook-jawed rainbows (spawning males), hard-fighting steelhead (just rainbows), German browns, brookies, and the varieties of Mt. Lassen rainbows all are touted to fishermen. But the rest of the year, the battle quiets down. Everyone just planted catfish of about the same size. It gave anglers a breather from the screaming full-page ads in Western Outdoor News about the trout de jour being planted.
If it wasn’t for the Department of Fish and Game, the summer season would be even more exciting than winter. We would have walleye, northern pike, muskie, Nile perch, peacock bass, and huge, South American catfish swimming in local park lakes. But the DFG, after dumping stripers, shad, carp, and non-native trout all over the state, have decided that non-natives are a bad idea -- even though they’re not always a bad idea. The agency has now spent millions of dollars eliminating pike, and all other fish, from Davis Lake near Portola. This was a colossal waste of money getting rid of a good gamefish that didn’t seem to be having a horrible impact on the trout and bass fishery in Davis, also non-native species. So God forbid if you want to bring in peacock bass to Southern California to improve fishing for anglers in a lake that isn’t natural and wouldn’t exist if it wasn’t for man. We have to plant only existing or native fish. Kind of tough in a place where there was almost no water 100 years ago.
So for the past couple of seasons, more and more sturgeon have been planted. Legally. The 202-pound fish landed by Hesperia Lake just before Christmas generated a buzz in the local fishing world. This was the largest fish ever caught in freshwater in this region -- bigger than the 100-pound blue catfish in San Diego County reservoirs, bigger than 80-pound flatheads from the Colorado River, and bigger than the 40-pound stripers from Silverwood and Willow Beach.
The good news is that sturgeon get big, and I’d bet that 300 and 400 pounders will end up in local lakes before too long. We’ll also start seeing bigger catfish planted on a regular basis this coming summer, thanks to a couple of hatcheries now growing bigger fish for the recreational fishing market.
It might not be like fishing for wild cutthroat trout on the Snake River in Wyoming, but our urban fishing program is something that millions of anglers can afford and reach easily. I’d sure like the DFG to rethink its whole exotic fish ban. Nile perch would be awesome in Glen Helen Regional Park Lake. And I’ve always liked big pike. I’m sure they would attack swimmers at Lake Perris. Or better yet, freshwater sharks from Nicaragua. How cool would that be?
SPORTSMAN’S WAREHOUSE: One of the foremost discount chain stores for hunters and anglers is coming to Southern California. Sportsman’s Warehouse, a Utah-based chain of 55 stores across the nation, will be opening its first Southern California store in Victorville with a tentative opening date of March 27, and a grand opening set for early April. The store will be located in the old Costco building, which has been reduced in size and remodeled for the new store.
Major outdoor retail companies are finally taking an interest in the California marketplace, beyond catalog and Internet sales. Bass Pro Shops was the first of these major retailers to open a facility here when the doors on the Rancho Cucamonga store kicked open last summer. Bass Pro has since announced new stores in Bakersfield and Manteca. There have been rumors that Cabela’s was also going to open a store, but those rumors have seemed to ratchet back in recent months.
I still miss the old, long-dead Herter’s catalog company and when Abercrombie & Fitch was perhaps the world’s foremost outdoor outfitter. Herter’s was the sportsman’s mail order version of Wal-Mart, carrying a wide range of products at bargain prices. It was for the blue collar sportsman. A&F was a Ritzy retail store that carried everything from double rifles to safari wear. The only similarity between today’s and yesterday’s A&F is high-priced goods. But back then you paid for quality not hip.

OUTDOOR CALENDAR

JANUARY 5 HUNTER SAFETY CLASS: A one-day, 10-hour certified hunter safety class will be held at Mike Raahauge's Shooting Enterprises, Norco. Classes are required for all first-time California hunters before a hunting license can be purchased. Cost is $35 per person. The 2008 class date schedule is Feb. 16, Mar. 8, Apr. 5, May 3, June 21, July 12, Aug. 2, 16, 23, 24, 30, Sept. 13, Oct. 11, Nov. 1, Dec. 6. Sign-ups are taken at all Turner's Outdoorsman stores. Contact Raahauge's at 951-735-7981.
JANUARY 12 SCBS WILDLIFE DRINKER REPAIR: The Society for the Conservation of Bighorn Sheep will be coordinating a wildlife drinker installation project, Saturday, Jan. 12 on the new “West 40” drinker. Volunteers are needed. Contact Gary Thomas at 909-981-5487 or via e-mail at g.cranky@version.net.
JANUARY 12 BALD EAGLE CENSUS: Volunteers are needed for the winter census of bald eagles at Big Bear Lake, Lake Arrowhead, Silverwood Lake, and Lake Hemet on Saturday, January 12. Counts are conducted the same day and same times at all four waters. Volunteers need to bring binoculars, a watch, and wear warm clothes. For more information about eagle counts, please call Marc Stamer with the San Bernardino National Forest in Big Bear at 909-382-2828 to count at Arrowhead or Big Bear; Heidi Sellers at the San Jacinto Ranger Station at 909-382-2945 to count at Lake Hemet; or Rick Reisenhoffer at 760-389-2281 to count at Lake Silverwood. Other count dates this winter are Feb. 9 and March 8.
JANUARY 12-13 CONCEALED CARRY WEAPON COURSE: A 16-hour California Concealed Carry Weapon (CCW) course is being offered by Firearms Training Associates at Mike Raahauge's Shooting Enterprises this Saturday and Sunday. Cost is $180 per person. This course meets the state requirement for 16 hours of training to qualify for a CCW. Other dates for 2008 classes are Feb. 9-10, Mar. 29-30, April 19-20, May 17-18, June 21-22, July 12-13, Aug. 2-3, Sept. 6-7, Oct. 4-5, Nov. 1-2, and Dec. 6-7. Contact FTA at 714-701-9918 or 877-544-4867. The web site is www.ftatv.com.
JANUARY 14 SCBS WILDLIFE DRINKER REPAIR: The Society for the Conservation of Bighorn Sheep will be coordinating a wildlife drinker repair project, Monday, Jan. 14 on the “Bee Jay” drinker. Volunteers are needed. Contact Gary Thomas at 909-981-5487 or via e-mail at g.cranky@version.net.
JANUARY 17 SCBS WILDLIFE DRINKER REPAIR: The Society for the Conservation of Bighorn Sheep will be installing a water monitor on the “Old Dad” drinker Thursday, Jan. 17. Volunteers are needed. Contact Gary Thomas at 909-981-5487 or via e-mail at g.cranky@version.net.
JANUARY 25 HEAVYWEIGH BASS CLASSIC TOURNAMENT: The Heavyweight Bass Classic will be held Friday, Jan. 25 at Casitas Lake to determine the best of the big bass anglers. The event is limited to 50 anglers with a $200 entry fee and the winner takes all -- not to mention having bragging rights at the best big bass angler in the country. For more information, contact Ron Cervenka, P.O. Box 800342, Santa Clarita, CA 91380 or e-mail socalteams@hotmail.com.
JANUARY 26 SCBS WILDLIFE DRINKER REPAIR: The Society for the Conservation of Bighorn Sheep will be installing a water monitor on the “Paiute” drinker on Saturday, Jan. 26. Volunteers are needed. Contact Gary Thomas at 909-981-5487 or via e-mail at g.cranky@version.net.
FEBRUARY 9 CWA INLAND EMPIRE SHOOT: The California waterfowl Association will be having its Inland Empire Shoot and Lunch fund-raiser beginning 7 a.m., Saturday, Feb. 9 at Mike Raahauge’s Shooting Enterprises, 14995 River Road, Corona. Cost is $60 per shooter, $25 per shooter, $300 per squad. Contact Frank Moore at 714-803-7374, Debbie Davis at 909-730-7730, or log on to www.calwaterfowl.org.
FEBRUARY 9 BALD EAGLE CENSUS: Volunteers are needed for the winter census of bald eagles at Big Bear Lake, Lake Arrowhead, Silverwood Lake, and Lake Hemet on Saturday, February 9. Counts are conducted the same day and same times at all four waters. Volunteers need to bring binoculars, a watch, and wear warm clothes. For more information about eagle counts, please call Marc Stamer with the San Bernardino National Forest in Big Bear at 909-382-2828 to count at Arrowhead or Big Bear; Heidi Sellers at the San Jacinto Ranger Station at 909-382-2945 to count at Lake Hemet; or Rick Reisenhoffer at 760-389-2281 to count at Lake Silverwood. The last of these winter counts is March 8.
FEBRUARY 9-10 CONCEALED CARRY WEAPON COURSE: A 16-hour California Concealed Carry Weapon (CCW) course is being offered by Firearms Training Associates at Mike Raahauge's Shooting Enterprises this Saturday and Sunday. Cost is $180 per person. This course meets the state requirement for 16 hours of training to qualify for a CCW. Other dates for 2008 classes are Mar. 29-30, April 19-20, May 17-18, June 21-22, July 12-13, Aug. 2-3, Sept. 6-7, Oct. 4-5, Nov. 1-2, and Dec. 6-7. Contact FTA at 714-701-9918 or 877-544-4867. The web site is www.ftatv.com.
FEBRUARY 15 CWA SAN DIEGO COUNTY DINNER: The California Waterfowl Association’s San Diego County Chapter will have its annual fund-raising dinner beginning 6 p.m., Friday, Feb. 15 at the Elks’ Club, 1400 E. Washington, El Cajon. Cost is $65 per person, $95 per couple. Contact John Howard at 619-440-8319, Tom Homen at 209-587-0886, or log on to www.calwaterfowl.org.
FEBRUARY 16 HUNTER SAFETY CLASS: A one-day, 10-hour certified hunter safety class will be held at Mike Raahauge's Shooting Enterprises, Norco. Classes are required for all first-time California hunters before a hunting license can be purchased. Cost is $35 per person. The 2008 class date schedule is Mar. 8, Apr. 5, May 3, June 21, July 12, Aug. 2, 16, 23, 24, 30, Sept. 13, Oct. 11, Nov. 1, Dec. 6. Sign-ups are taken at all Turner's Outdoorsman stores. Contact Raahauge's at 951-735-7981.
FEBRUARY 16-17 WATER-FOR-WILDLIFE WORK PROJECT: The Mojave Preserve Water-for-Wildlife Volunteer Group will have a guzzler repair project and campout in the Cedar Canyon area of the Mojave National Preserve Feb. 16-17. Repairs will be made to two small game guzzlers and a final coat of Merlex applied to a third drinker. Everyone should bring camping gear, water, firewood, food, and gloves. Next project dates are March 14-15, April 11-13, May 16-18. For more information and directions to the camp site, contact Cliff McDonald at 760-326-2935 or via e-mail at bigmc@citlink.net.
MARCH 5-9 FRED HALL LONG BEACH SHOW: The Fred Hall Fishing Tackle, Boat, and Travel Show will be held March 5-9 at the Long Beach Convention Center. This is the West Coast’s granddaddy of sportsman’s shows filling the convention center with exhibitors. Admission to the Hall Show is $15 for adults and kids are free. For more information, go to www.fredhall.com or call 805-389-3339.
MARCH 8 BALD EAGLE CENSUS: Volunteers are needed for the winter census of bald eagles at Big Bear Lake, Lake Arrowhead, Silverwood Lake, and Lake Hemet on Saturday, March 8. Counts are conducted the same day and same times at all four waters. Volunteers need to bring binoculars, a watch, and wear warm clothes. For more information about eagle counts, please call Marc Stamer with the San Bernardino National Forest in Big Bear at 909-382-2828 to count at Arrowhead or Big Bear; Heidi Sellers at the San Jacinto Ranger Station at 909-382-2945 to count at Lake Hemet; or Rick Reisenhoffer at 760-389-2281 to count at Lake Silverwood.
MARCH 14-16 WATER-FOR-WILDLIFE WORK PROJECT: The Mojave Preserve Water-for-Wildlife Volunteer Group will have a guzzler repair project in the Cima area of the Mojave National Preserve March 14-16. Five guzzlers and two springs are scheduled for repair and restoration. Food will be provided two evenings and two mornings, but everyone should bring camping gear, water, firewood, food or lunch and snacks, and gloves. Next project dates are April 11-13 and May 16-18. For more information and directions to the camp site, contact Cliff McDonald at 760-326-2935 or via e-mail at bigmc@citlink.net.
MARCH 26-30 FRED HALL DEL MAR SHOW: The Fred Hall Fishing Tackle, Boat, and Travel Show will be held March 26-30 at the Del Mar Fairgrounds. The companion show to the Long Beach event, this is the largest sportsman’s show in San Diego County. Admission to the Hall Show is $15 for adults and kids are free. For more information, go to www.fredhall.com or call 805-389-3339.

CLUBS AND ORGANIZATIONS

The following is a list of hunting, shooting, and fishing clubs and organizations in Southern California with contact information and regular meeting dates:
976-TUNA ROD AND REEL CLUB: The 976-Tuna Rod and Reel Club meets 7 p.m. the first Thursday of each month at Bass Pro Shops, Rancho Cucamonga. At the December meeting a free trip to Palmas de Cortez in Baja will be given away. Contact Phil Friedman at 310-328-8426.
CALIFORNIA STATE VARMINT CALLERS ASSOCIATION: The California State Varmint Callers Association meets 7 p.m. the second Tuesday of each month at the Denny's just north of the 210 freeway at Irwindale Ave., Irwindale. Contact Steven Childs at 626-407-8826 or steve@sdchilds.com. Web site: www.csvca.com.
CANYON OAKS SPORTSMAN’S CLUB: The Canyon Oaks Sportsman’s Club meets the first Tuesday of every month at it’s clubhouse in Lakeview Terrace-Sylmar. The club has regular trap, skeet, smallbore, big bore, handgun, and Cowboy Action shooting events. Contact Gary White at 818-998-7240, Mike Totta at 818-362-2181 or Mike Nickoloff via e-mail at idpamike@yahoo.com.
CERRITOS ROD & GUN CLUB: The Cerritos Rod & Gun Club meets the second Wednesday of each month at Heritage Park in Cerritos. Contact Charles Sharp at 714-317-8290 or fish_90605@yahoo.com.
CLUB FISH: Club Fish, a 20-year-old fishing club, meets 7:30 p.m. the second Wednesday of each month at the Izaak Walton League Clubhouse, Santa Ana. The clubhouse is located at the entrance to Riverview Gold Course. Contact Mike Cross at 949-854-5258 or m_r_cross@yahoo.com.
HIGH DESERT FLY-FISHERS: The High Desert Fly-Fishers holds its monthly meetings on the second Thursday of each month at The Apple Valley Fire Conference Center, 19235 Yucca Loma, Apple Valley. Contact John Rose at 760-247-5966.
HIGHLAND PARK SPORTSMEN'S CLUB: The Highland Park Sportsmen's Club meets at 8 p.m. the first and third Wednesday of each month at 2035 Colorado Blvd., Los Angeles. Contact Mauro Garcia at 323-254-0763 or incareal@juno.com.
NATIONAL VARMINT HUNTERS: The National Varmint Hunters meets 7:30 p.m. the second Wednesday of each month at the Veterans of Foreign Wars club located on Grand Avenue, just west of 17th Street, Santa Ana. Contact Mark Harris at 714-655-6954 or mhitis1@yahoo.com or Terry Mathers at 714-299-9938 or coyote@jps.net.
NATIONAL WILD TURKEY FEDERATION (HIGH DESERT CHAPTER):The High Desert Chapter of the National Wild Turkey Federation meets 6:30 p.m. the first Thursday of each month at the Apple Valley Gun Club, 16699 Stoddard Wells Rd., Victorville. Contact Dave Recce at 760-956-7092 or Dave Halbrook at 760-553-2794.
NATIONAL WILD TURKEY FEDERATION (ORANGE COUNTY CHAPTER):The Orange County Chapter of the National Wild Turkey Federation meets 6 p.m. the third Tuesday of each month at The Firing Line, 17921 Jamestown Lane, Huntington Beach. Contact Pat Ryan at 714-841-2100 or Casey Rasmussen at 714-377-5859.
ORANCO BOWMEN: The ORANCO Bowmen meet the second Tuesday of each month at the club range, 17504 Pomona Rincon Rd., Chino (Euclid Avenue one block north of the 71 freeway). The range is open to the public on Sundays 8:30 a.m. to 2 p.m. Call 909-597-7582. Web site: www.oranco.org.
ORANGE COUNTY BASS CLUB: The Orange County Bass Club meets 7 p.m. the third Monday of each month at the Garden Grove Elk's Lodge. Contact Steve Pendergast at 949-651-8172 or prendergasts@netzero.com.
PLUNGE CREEK COWBOYS: The Plunge Creek Cowboys, a new Cowboy Action Shooting club in the Inland Empire, has shoots the third Saturday of each month at the Inland Fish and Game range on Orange Street in East Highlands. Authentic or replica firearms and garb required. Information: www.plungecreekcowboys.com.
PREDATOR CALLERS OF ORANGE COUNTY: The Predator Callers of Orange County meet 7 p.m. on the second Tuesday of the month at the Denny's restaurant, 7490 Edinger Ave., Huntington Beach. Contact Bob Peters via e-mail at bpi1@ca.rr.com or Don Jamroz at donjamroz@aol.com.
QUAIL UNLIMITED (HIGH DESERT CHAPTER): The High Desert Chapter of Quail Unlimited meets 6 p.m. the third Tuesday of each month at the Apple Valley Gun Club. Contact Cruz Garcia at 760-949-6334 or fathercruz@verizon.net.
QUAIL UNLIMITED (ORANGE COUNTY CHAPTER): The Orange County Chapter of Quail Unlimited meets 7 p.m. the first Tuesday of each month at the Izaak Walton League Clubhouse (located at the entrance to Riverview Golf Course) in Santa Ana. Contact Craig Riedel at 714-282-1194 or criedel@mflex.com.
QUAIL UNLIMITED (RIVERSIDE CHAPTER): The Riverside Chapter of Quail Unlimited meets 7 p.m. the second Thursday of each month at Prado Olympic Shooting Park, 17501 Pomona Rincon Road, Chino (one block west of Euclid, just off the 71 freeway). Contact Ron Gibbons at 909-902-9814 or gibbent@gte.net. Web site: www.quriverside.com.
QUAIL UNLIMITED (SAN DIEGO CHAPTER): The San Diego Chapter of Quail Unlimited meets 6:30 p.m. the third Thursday of each month at DFG Headquarters at 4949 Viewridge Rd., San Diego. Contact David Preddy at davidpreddy@cox.net or visit www.sdqu.org.
QUAIL UNLIMITED (SAN GABRIEL VALLEY CHAPTER): The San Gabriel Valley Chapter of Quail Unlimited meets 6 p.m. the second Wednesday of each month at Triple B Clays in El Monte. Contact Tim Bovard at 866-206-9070, ext. 6715 or sgvqu@onebox.com.
REDONDO ROD & GUN CLUB: The Redondo Rod & Gun Club meets 8 p.m. every Thursday of every month at its own clubhouse. The club has promoted hunting, fishing, sport shooting and the outdoors since 1948. The clubhouse is located at 2023 Vanderbilt Lane, Redondo Beach. Contact 310-379-7772.
RIVERSIDE VARMINT CALLERS: The Riverside Varmint Callers meet 7 p.m. the last Saturday of each month at Flo's Country Kitchen, Riverside. Contact Lance Cochrane at 909-919-4309 or Ray Gauthier at 951-785-4986. Web site:www.californiavarmintcallers.com/chapters.html/.
SAN DIEGO SPORTING DOG CLUB: The San Diego Sporting Dog Club meets 7 p.m. the second Wednesday of each month at the Animal Medical Center, 600 Broadway, El Cajon. Contact Steve Sarmiento at 619-659-9393 or sssarmi@sbcglobal.net.
SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA VARMINT CALLERS ASSOCIATION: The Southern California Varmint Callers Association meets 8 p.m. the first Wednesday of each month at the Denny's Restaurant at Pioneer Blvd and Imperial Highway in Norwalk. Contact Granville Crow at 310-548-6221 or crowshot1@cox.net or Skip Gildner at 562-900-9020 or mtnhigh5@excite.com.
TEMPLE CITY SPORTSMEN: The Temple City Sportsmen meet the first Thursday of each month at the Temple City Civic Center in Temple City. Contact Jim White at 626-201-7782 or TCSPresident2006@yahoo.com.
TURNER'S OUTDOORSMAN ROD AND REEL CLUB: The Turner's Outdoorsman Rod and Reel Club meets 7 p.m. the second Wednesday of each month at Marie Calendar’s Restaurant, 2300 Foothill, Pasadena. Contact Richard Crowe at 626-960-9610.

[Want your event or club listed here? Send the information to Jim Matthews, Outdoor News Service, P.O. Box 9007, San Bernardino, CA 92427-0007 or e-mail it to odwriter@earthlink.net. Following the style used above for events and clubs makes our life easier and increases the likelihood of it being included here.]

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